Australian INfront

1. By MLK14 on 04th July 2010 @ 11.00 PM

Oh, Lorena this is such a poor post from you. The standards of posts on this website has been down ever since its old version and this is such a poor choice of editing. This Jamie person is no more than a delinquent, voyeuristic 'club' kid with immature skills and self-presentation. He even cried wolf when Another Magazine's website used one of his RAFW photographs when he should have been happy that something had appeared on Another which is contributed by some great industry people.

I have to say that the professional standards locally particularly the relationships between individuals and 'well-known' fashion magazines here are too partial and excessive self-indulgence. We don't need another Olivier Zahm who thinks it's quite appropriate for women to drop their clothes at his discretion.

2. By lorena on 05th July 2010 @ 8.41 AM

Sorry you feel that way MLK14. I happen to think that what Jamie does takes a great degree of skill. Anyone can turn up at a fashion event and attempt to take photos but only a skilled photographer can capture a decent image in the madness of models racing down a catwalk, sitting in a poorly lit room and also not even sitting in the photographers pit (I saw Jamie frequently sitting several rows behind the first row at several shows).

When it comes to his street photography, again anyone can take 'street style' shots. It takes a skilled eye to approach a random person off the street and take a decent picture of them in less than a minute. If you visit Jamie's site you will see that many of his street shots are actually taken of moving images. Again - this takes skill.

With regards to Another Magazine appropriating his images; I wholeheartedly support Jamie. He made the effort to attend the fashion show, take several hundred images, edit through the best ones - only to have another website pilfer the image from his website and use it without asking for permission and without giving him the photo credit. When he queried them about the use of his work, they took down the image and nothing further was said.

I think it is healthy to agree to disagree about the creative or artistic merit of any work. However I don't think that it's necessary to launch a personal attack on a young man who I know works incredibly hard to gather the content for his website.

With regards to your belief that the standards of the posts on this website are down since it's old version: I'm sorry that you feel that way. Personally, I think Australian INfront is doing a great job of representing the breadth of Australian creative work. I'm sure it's not going to please everyone - but then no one is being forced to visit.

3. By funnelbc on 05th July 2010 @ 9.15 AM

Your point about the quality of posts falling on AIF is nonsense. We had barely any original editorial content created for AIF in the past, and even linking to external sites was spasmodic at best.

He even cried wolf when Another Magazine's website used one of his RAFW photographs when he should have been happy that something had appeared on Another which is contributed by some great industry people.

Care to define cry wolf?

4. By JubbJubb on 05th July 2010 @ 9.25 AM

MLK14, as a great contributor to this site of a massive 4 posts, your opinion isn't valid.

5. By funnelbc on 05th July 2010 @ 9.37 AM

JubbJubb that's not helpful at all.

6. By Looney on 05th July 2010 @ 9.41 AM

slow down folks

he has an opinion, it's an open forum and therefore what makes his points not valid and to that end mine or yours too?

i make no comment on the photographer as i do not relate any of that kind of thing, never did

he (and i'm only guessing that MLK14 is a he) could have edited his post to sound a little less aggressive though and helped create a thread with valid points and a calmer atmosphere prevailed and a discussion started

7. By MLK14 on 05th July 2010 @ 11.54 AM

This is something I have had simmering for a long time now and I have always felt to be diplomatic in my opinions but when our local industry is small and insular in some ways and when there is not the multi-diversity in publications particularly in fashion, the degree of professionalism in presentation whether in images or in personal manners is just deteriorating. Since when have we lost the notion of savior faire and that a magazine editor should choose to be so candidly partial to this person? Where's the idea of self-respect and some set professional boundaries? I'm probably more appalled my feelings towards this is because it is shown here on AIF. I usually don't mind the website on its regular contributions to members as overall it's better to have AIF presence than none at all, Jamie shoudn't have warrant this kind of post. But this is my personal opinion. It's either lacking maturity or seemingly unbridled freedom. If he showed a little decency than I wouldn't mind. But maybe what he lacks is also a lack in quality of writing and images made by Oyster.

8. By Looney on 05th July 2010 @ 11.57 AM

MLK14

eloquent

stick around

9. By aistrope on 05th July 2010 @ 12.07 PM

eloquent

You think? I've read it several times now and I can't work out what MLK14 is upset about? Is it about the style of photography, Jamie himself or content on AIF?

10. By JubbJubb on 05th July 2010 @ 12.11 PM

I agree Damo. He's just discovered the Thesaurus and is going nuts.

11. By Looney on 05th July 2010 @ 12.21 PM

he don't like the guys work and broadens his argument to the industry in general

he does not think this man's work warrants a mention here

his case about 'ain' is a bit lax though

all his opinion, which is fair enough, he makes this point in each post

i'm outa here, i find fashion as boring a chewing the insides of my cheeks on speed

12. By funnelbc on 05th July 2010 @ 12.24 PM

Therefore, purple monkey dishwasher, savior faire astronaut moonboots, furthermore, unintelligible remark about the price of cheese on the derivatives market. British Vogue.

But that's my personal opinion unbridled freedom or the moon rocks talkin' I can't tell.

13. By dave on 05th July 2010 @ 1.03 PM

But perhaps MLK14 can convey his opinion towards someone's work without being so negative about those who are contributing to AiF and the community with their own spare time? "Design" and "creativity" is always going to be subjective, so there will never be an absolute "right" or "wrong" on what is "good" or "bad".

Surely being able to accept that and discuss differing opinions in a mature, intelligent way should be the aim of anyone that cares about the Australian design community over and above their own subjective view of any particular designer/creative person?

14. By letsmakeart on 05th July 2010 @ 1.24 PM

Regardless of whether he is good or not, no magazine or entity has the right to go to a photographer's website and infringe upon their copyright at will.

To support that because YOU think it might be a good thing for him is stupid. It's that kind of attitude that is completely selling photography down the river as a profitable industry at the moment.

15. By JubbJubb on 05th July 2010 @ 2.17 PM

virgin learnt that the hard way... (few years back now)

http://www.smh.com.au/news/technology/virgin-sued-for-using-teens-photo/2007/09/21/1189881735928.html

16. By Scarlett on 05th July 2010 @ 2.51 PM

I agree with Dave - design is always going to be subjective- it all comes down to personal opinion.

I don't feel it was fair for MLK14 to attack Lorena like that, some people she posts I like and some people she posts I don't like. Doesn't mean she's bringing AIF down, in fact I think it's so important to expose us to designs we like and don't like so we can reflect on each and grow from it in our own work.

I think it's fair to voice your own opinion over whether you like or dislike the work. That's everyone's right, so long as it is in a respectable manner and doesn't blame people and target them for things they aren't to be blamed for.

Personally I like Jamie's work.

17. By Gidget on 05th July 2010 @ 2.52 PM

I think the argument is well put and it's not as bad as something like:
Your post count is 2! You are the stupid!

I too am tiring of the amount of fashion posts on infront news, i know this is a design community but it used to be a predominately graphic design community. I recognise that taking the time to seek out news takes a lot of effort and the people who post frequently are of a more fashion orientated background, but my interest is waning considerably.

18. By JubbJubb on 05th July 2010 @ 3.02 PM

Gidg, he was attacking Lorena for sharing something when he's never actively been involved in the site or forum before. Thats a bit shallow in my books, but i guess the idea of anonymous posting is too,
which we are all guilty of.

19. By aistrope on 05th July 2010 @ 3.22 PM

As a designer, I think it's odd to focus on aesthetics but not appreciate fashion...

When we relaunched the site we wanted to focus on representing and supporting Australian creative talent, and that covers all aspects of creativity.

Whether you love or hate his work - Jamie is a young Australian man who works in the creative realm. Knocking him and his work seems counterproductive in terms of supporting our own industry.

Working in design is about actively engaging in being innovative. It seems odd that so many people are staunch supporters of keeping the site as it used to be 5 years ago as opposed to having it evolve and grow.

Gidget, honestly, go through the last 10 pages of news posts and tell me how many of them are purely fashion related.

20. By Jem on 05th July 2010 @ 3.37 PM

If you don't like what gets posted on the site by the people who run the site, then send the people who run the site some stuff you would like posted instead.

21. By JubbJubb on 05th July 2010 @ 3.40 PM

or don't read it.

22. By Gidget on 05th July 2010 @ 3.44 PM

I hardly think it's fair to say that I don't want it to grow because I am not enamored with the fashion posts.

So, I shall participate in the Oh Jamie debate (regarding the work not the person who posted the news):
Call me Holden Caufield, or just old and bitter but a lot of the images Jamie captures makes me think "what a pack of phonies" and I know that will ruffle feathers, but it's honestly how I feel. Coming from someone who dresses up every day it my seem rich but those young people give me hives.

23. By Taku on 05th July 2010 @ 5.14 PM

What? This isn't a thread on Jamie Oliver? aww nuts!

24. By Looney on 05th July 2010 @ 5.16 PM

quote text. aistrope - As a designer, I think it's odd to focus on aesthetics but not appreciate fashion...

why?, i'm genuinely interested why fashion and what's hot for two seconds needs to be of interest to someone working in graphics, i can see why some would love the two

quote text. JubbJubb - or don't read it.

have to agree with that one

---------------

i don't have a problem with fashion threads, if we post on them they live

so if you don't like them don't feed them, give nutrition to another beast, or give birth to one

i started two threads yesterday (well re-vamped old ones), about 'wip' and 'work for the hell of it'

they died today

someone get a vet

25. By Luke on 05th July 2010 @ 5.30 PM

I'll have to agree with Gidget and some of the others in this thread. As much as I'm happy to read the odd fashion article or see someones look book, I think the RAFW coverage was over the top. I barely looked at AIF in that week and skipped straight to the forum, and the articles I did read I struggled to understand. I can't remember single fashion designer or high fashion discussion on the old forum, so i'm not sure why it's been getting so much coverage on the new site.

No disrespect to Lorena as i think she has contributes a great deal to the new AIF

26. By noftus on 05th July 2010 @ 6.00 PM

Yes I agree that focussing too much on fashion is a turn-off for AIF.

Fashion is not the wholistic representation of Australian creative talent, and it certainly does not cover all aspects of creativity. So pushing it too much just gives a prententious feel to this place.

I like how MLK gave their opinion, and wish others here were big enough to get over the obtuse delivery. This is the internet after all.

27. By katjabak on 05th July 2010 @ 6.53 PM

Sigh. Look what's happened.

To be honest, I'm not the biggest fan of fashion - it really does nothing for me. I respect it as a creative industry but don't really hold it within the art & design sphere. Considering these days anybody can become a 'fashion designer' it's lost credibility for me. But still, I respect it.

In regards to this guys photography, I'm not impressed and further I'm a little irritated by it. All the images show teens to twenty-somethings that are all the same. No one in the images is really innovative, the images aren't very good (compositionally and technically). It's just focussing on the kids that wear their baggy cardigans because they're so po-mo with undercuts and tattoos. It's boring. It's old. It's not ironic, it never was.

But I feel bad for Lorena. That first reply seemed like a bit of an attack - the opening comments were not necessary.

Having said that... yeah. Fashion on AiF is a turn off.

28. By utoba78 on 05th July 2010 @ 6.57 PM

A designer who pigeon holes themselves is in danger of no longer being subjective in the world he/she inhabits. How can you then design and communicate in that space with new ideas?

Fashion like design relies on an ever evolving cycle of trends and influences to stay fresh. Close yourself off to these and you'll never make anything new? Isn't what music people listen too, what they wear, what they read and how we think not important? I argue it is.

If you don't like the fashion post just spin on people.

But, your missing the point if you think they don't belong here.

29. By JubbJubb on 05th July 2010 @ 7.21 PM

well put Utoba78

katjabak said "I respect it as a creative industry but don't really hold it within the art & design sphere"

So textile design, fashion design and everything involved in creating clothing you wouldn't call design?
Majority of it starts from pen on paper! T-shirt print are designed... how does it not fall under this "sphere"?

I don't see the problem at all with it being featured. I don't follow the industry, but I respect the fact that people are taking their time to share this stuff.

30. By goaskalicia on 05th July 2010 @ 7.42 PM

A rant about fashion as a design-form not being respected by other designers by Alicia Hannah Naomi:

There are so many facets to the Australian design industry and I do feel like fashion seems to be the least credible facet to the design sphere.

No one is saying you designers have to LIKE fashion; but it's a little sad to see people being "turned off" by it. As a topic on AIF, it's rearing it's head a lot because it's new - I've no doubt that as the community goes through the motions it will settle into a less frequent, higher quality schedule.

Looney In regards to your comment "what's hot for two minutes"; in the fashion industry's defence, it changes so frequently because it has to. Unlike other design realms, fashion has seasons. You're unlikely to want to wear a full-length wool coat in summer or a pair of shorts in a wintery storm. Fashion designers have a particularly unusual challenge to be constantly turning over new, fresh, exciting design work in 6 month periods or they don't make sales because their product becomes unwearable. While it's easy enough for most of us to get away with wearing the same t-shirt all year around - it's fair to say that all designers strive to consistently produce their best work with every new project they take on.

The problem with this mentality is that so many people can't think of fashion designers as artists just like those who paint, photograph, work digitally, make films, create interiors, craft furniture, etc.

But when you look at the work of an artist like Dion Lee - who's painfully intricate creations not only must be designed, but fabricated, constructed and then subsequently worn - repeatedly perhaps, it does break my heart a little when fellow designers in other facets of the sphere can't stop and at least take it seriously, even if they don't LIKE it.

(I know commenters like you katjabak say that you do still respect it as an industry - I see that and I thank you.)

-----------------------

A reply to the news item about Oh Jamie and my surprise at the comments that have formed in this thread by Alicia Hannah Naomi:

Although Jamie is often promoted as a fashion blogger it should be noted that he most tries to present himself as a photographer and I'm surprised there are so few comments addressing his skills as a photographer than there are complaining about the clothes his subjects wear.

I've personally never felt an affinity with the Terry Richardson/Cobrasnake messy hipster party-photo style that Jamie emulates. It is certainly proving to have a place in the industry but I don't find much value in the lack of technicality involved in the style.

Having said that, I also feel that technically Jamie has a long way to come despite the bad-on-purpose nature of the style. I also think that Jamie is aware of this as I've seen him discuss his desire to develop his skills on twitter.

Some of his images (especially from RAFW) are very striking and you can see there is enormous potential to his work, but I'd like to see Jamie move away from the Richardson-cliche and develop his own style while building some strong technical foundations to his work because I think he could go far.

31. By Scarlett on 05th July 2010 @ 7.44 PM

I'm fine with the fashion posts, some I like to look at and some I don't. As to not being in the design industry, that doesn't sit right in me. I agree with JubbJubb, it's all colour matching, structure, balance, it's just in a different form. Personally I can appreciate it, although I don't enjoy a lot of it but still I can appreciate it.

32. By goaskalicia on 05th July 2010 @ 7.44 PM

Oh GREAT! utoba78 and JubbJubb had not replied when I was working on my response, now I look like even more of a tool!

33. By utoba78 on 05th July 2010 @ 8.20 PM

Tools unite!

34. By katjabak on 05th July 2010 @ 9.46 PM

katjabak said "I respect it as a creative industry but don't really hold it within the art & design sphere" So textile design, fashion design and everything involved in creating clothing you wouldn't call design? Majority of it starts from pen on paper! T-shirt print are designed... how does it not fall under this "sphere"? I don't see the problem at all with it being featured. I don't follow the industry, but I respect the fact that people are taking their time to share this stuff.

Good point. I stand corrected.
I guess I just don't connect with fashion as much as other design genres.

35. By JubbJubb on 05th July 2010 @ 10.54 PM

not at all goaskalicia, nicely said.

tools are awesome.

36. By bex on 08th July 2010 @ 12.42 AM

Well, I'd like to say a big thumbs up to fashion related posts.

When I joined the old site, I was fresh out of uni - purely graphic design focussed, I thought that was all I wanted to know about. Now, years later, the bulk of my work is as a fashion art director, going on shoots and setting out spreads for magazines, and LMFF.

Sure I'm still a total type nerd and illustrator is my best friend. But, that's not all I want to see. When I look at fashion (the actual garments) and fashion photography, I see lines, shapes, light and shadow - the composition and the objective. Its just another expression of form.

All creative fields go hand in hand, they all inspire and feed each other, nothing exists in a bubble.

@goaskalicia your points were beautifully made and @lorena I'm loving your work, keep up with the fashion posts, I'll be eagerly awaiting the next.